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(Part 2) Concerning the Economic Calculation Problem
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Other > E-books
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1
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90.81 KB

Texted language(s):
English
Tag(s):
The Venus Project The Zeitgeist Movement Resource Based Economy RBE Economic Calculation Problem von Mises John ONeill anarchism Otto Neurath calculation in natura Economics anarchy Hayek epistemology
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Uploaded:
Apr 13, 2011
By:
noirehtagemot



This torrent contains a summary of a discussion of the Economic Calculation Problem, by economist and market abolitionist John O'Neill. It is taken from his books The Market and Markets, Deliberations and Environment. I have tried to present his view as faithfully as I could, and large parts of it are direct quotations of him.

This second part concerns epistemological arguments made chiefly by Hayek.

Link to Part 1: http://thepiratebay.ee/torrent/6285761/Concerning_the_Economic_Calculation_Problem

This was written for the purpose of an ongoing debate in regards to a Resource Based Economy, and was first posted the on the forums of the Zeitgeist Movement. This is no way to be taken as an indication of professor O'Neill's support of said organization, or even his awareness of it's existence. I believe a lot of this is relevant to a RBE, but bear in mind that non-market alternatives can take other forms than that. Bear in mind also that only the ideas in a single publication are represented, and do not necessarily give a complete picture of professor O'Neill's views, or even necessarily confirm to his views after the time of the publication.

Any and all reproduction, use or copy of these text is quite legal and highly encouraged.

Comments

I'd love to read it, but I do think you should tell me what it is - there are a lot of books on Economics being released, I might miss yours.

You also seem to miss my point. I have no beef with Bastiat claiming our society is based on exchange - I do not agree, but I'm not going to argue that point. What my problem is, is the preposterous claim that ALL societies MUST be based on exchange, that we cannot, EVER, design or create a society not based on exchange. The reason this is a problem to me is that it is INSANE, there are CLEARLY a lot of societies, past and present, small and large, that are or where not based on exchange.

Same goes with the theory of value. Standing around discussing "which one is right" is insane - we're not dealing with physics or chemistry. Value is not tangible like that. It can and has been defined in many different ways. This is not the problem I am addressing; I am addressing practical problems that a society without money or markets can encounter. I am showing that such a society is technically possible.
The philosophical debate, i.e. if we SHOULD have such a society, or if how that society views value is a "good" thing, or any other such thing, I will skip here.
"Whenever there is an interaction, whereby at least one party is helped, without the other party being harmed, then there is exchange."

And let me guess, long story short, free market capitalism is the only way to prosperity?
You're not only using a really specific, not to say strange, definition of exchange (that includes a lot of things that are NOT generally considered exchange and doesn't include a lot of things that ARE considered forms of exchange), you're somehow from this definition concluding that a society without a market cannot be. Excuse me for quoting the old robot saying, but "does not compute".

Even accepting everything you say as true, it STILL does not follow. If society must be based on exchange, and every interaction "whereby at least one party is helped, without the other party being harmed" is exchange, and a non-market society contains such interactions, then even a non-market society has exchange. Thus your objection that non-market societies cannot exist because they lack exchange makes no sense.



"...we are the only one capable of helpful transmission of information. That is, communication containing value, as I define it."

This is demonstrably wrong. Animals can teach other animals things, and show them sources of food or shelter. Why is that not helpful or valuable information?

You make your definition of value sound like it's the Ultimate Definition, but if you think that any one definition of value can be the definite one, I've got some bad news for you... such a thing is an epistemological impossibility.

Same for your task of making economics a true science, like mathematics. The reason is that the laws of mathematics and physics, etc. are immutable. They are the laws of nature, and cannot be changed by man. The laws of economics are not, for they are based on the rules of society, and we ARE society, we can change it into whatever we like. The mathematics that describe how the economy within a given system works is very rigorous, but the system itself is not.
And how we design society depends ultimately on our goals, on what we want. And that in turn is very much a philosophical question. You cannot answer it with science, what you will wind up with is just another cliched attempt to equate your particular world view with "natural law".

This is why comparing your theory with Darwinian evolution is preposterous - evolution has a clear goal, set by nature.
What should the goal be with society? Should there be one? And why is any one answer better than another?
I am not presenting my view as the only possible one, or even the "best" one; there is no such thing.
I am presenting it as a way, the best I have come across myself but one that I will abandon in a second if something better comes along, of reaching specific goals. I do not expect everyone to agree with these goals, but I expect that those who do should at least consider the ideas I present here. There goals include things like "true liberty and freedom, including the ability to shape one's destiny and affect one's surroundings", "equality in the true sense", "the basic necessities of life available to all living beings", "surviving as a species on this planet", "life based on pursuit on higher and more important things than profit" and many other such things, which you are free to dismiss or hold in contempt.
But if you agree with them, consider then that what I spoke of can't be bought and sold on a market, and its value can't be measured in money or any other unit.
But if you agree with them, consider then that what I spoke of can't be bought and sold on a market, and its value can't be measured in money or any other unit.

I will again deal with your posts one by one:


1) Unlike mathematics, for society there is no "optimal solution", no specific way to reach a certain goal that can be

mathematically arrived at. That would imply a Cartesian account of reason and knowledge, one that both Hayek and Neurath reject. Your position has more in common with that of technocrats and Communists. And, since you've already admitted to the possibility of rational decision-making without a single unit and thus rejected von Mises's central position, you've now rejected both Hayek and von Mises... makes me wonder what side you're on here.

Now, clearly I can agree with the assertion that if one has certain goals, certain actions are detrimental to those goals while others are "good" - in fact that was the point I was trying to make in my last, and more philosophical, posts. If we want a society with those things I described, having a society that awards greed and selfishness is clearly detrimental to that goal.


2) All you say is based on the flawed assumption that a social science can work the same way as mathematics; that there are certainties in economics.
Moreover, saying that "a theory that fails in its prediction is flawed" is pretty no-shit-Sherlock. I mean DUUUUUHHHH.... that's the formal definition of a theory failing, you're not really bringing anything new to the table.

Off-course a theory that has a certain goal and fails to reach it is wrong - but my original points still stand. Those are:
1) We can choose to design society however we wish, on whatever principals and striving for whatever we wish.
2) A decentralised non-market society is able to overcome the problem of ignorance (even where capitalism fails to do so), and is able to make rational decisions (where capitalism again fails to do so).
3) What you say about physics completely misses my point, and saying that physics "is about what fantasies... can be made into experiences" is apart from being nonsensical, a pretty big statement. You REALLY need to back things up here. You're making a lot of completely baseless assumptions and presenting your opinions and views as fact. And you can't just define and redefine things so that it suits your purposes.
Also, the fact that general relativity and quantum mechanics are not in agreement, and that quantum mechanics doesn't work with certainty does NOT somehow lead us to the conclusion that economics can be treated the same way as physics. That's some impressive mental acrobatics, there...
My point with bringing up physics was that economics is NOT based on discovering or describing laws of nature - the laws of society are man-made entirely. Who cares that we can affect probability on a quantum level, that is not at all what I'm talking about. "Affecting probability on a quantum level" and "consciously designing from scratch" are not the same bloody thing.
4) The rest of what I posted was not meant to be argumentative, but merely described my feelings.
Money may be the closest thing to freedom we have now, without that somehow meaning that money is that thing which can give the most freedom to people overall. Not that I agree with money being the closest thing to freedom, mind you - in fact I could argue that the opposite is true. I shan't, however. I feel no need to argue against a completely baseless assertion you fail to argue for. Burden of proof is on you here, buddy. :)

"We are not a species."

What? Jeez, man, I wonder if you can pull a live rabbit out of the same place you pull these magical truths that don't need to be argued for or proven in any way.
That we are beyond evolution does not mean that we are beyond needing this planet to live. That we "eat plants" does not mean that the basic necessities of life are available to everyone.
What matter of Alex Jones type arguing is this? You just present baseless assumptions and personal opinions as fact, never backing anything up or properly arguing for it, and then
draw a conclusion from them that wouldn't follow even IF those assumptions where true!
5) No. No, it doesn't work like that. Something doesn't become true because you say it is.
I stated an opinion and explained my feelings, and allowed for others to disagree. You state your opinion and present it as a fact that I must accept, as something you can prove.

That free market capitalism is a system that gives freedom, and the subjective value theory, are both old free market arguments. They are not holy truths or tautologies, they are ways of viewing the world. Not THE way.
I won't try to debunk them here, because
1) they have been addressed elsewhere by others
2) it has nothing to do with the files I uploaded, and thus this argument.